Feminism | Posted by Jill L on 08/5/2010

Let’s Reclaim the Name

“So, you know how you’re a feminist?”
“Yes.”
“And yet you still expect men to open doors for you?”
“No, I expect the person going in through the door in front of me to slam it in my face.”

‘Feminist’ is often used as an insult to describe women who have characteristics which we admire in men but are contradictory (or so we fear) to society’s archaic view of femininity. Women who are strong, confident, loud, ruthless in business and assertive are ‘feminists’. And if they’re not vilifying it, society trivializes feminism’s cause. Men can’t open doors because feminism contradicts common courtesy. Obviously.

But to me, ‘feminist’ does not carry with it the images that it inspires in the minds of others. To the boys (and sadly, so sadly) the girls in my class, feminism is for the woman described above. And, you know what, it is for her. But feminism is as much for the girl who dreams of becoming a housewife as it is for the career-girl, as it is for me, as it is for you.

I am a feminist because I believe that your gender should not dictate whether or not you are granted opportunities in life. Simple as that. To me, not being a feminist because you are male or because you think ‘it’s all equal now’ is as stupid and as wrong as saying, “You know what, as a person in the white majority, racism in our society just doesn’t interest me.” But discrimination against women is as serious as discrimination against racial or religious minorities.

As feminists, we need to come together to show that this view of feminism as a trivial, pedantic is as inaccurate as it is insulting. We believe that every person everywhere deserves to be treated with dignity, respect and to live free from discrimination. We believe that every person, regardless of gender, has the right to chose how they live. We believe that everyone is equal under the law. Which one of these beliefs is needlessly pedantic? We need to step away from trivialities and instead face the big issues head on. It’s time to reclaim our name and say with pride “I am a feminist.”

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  • Studio16 @ at 11:31 am, August 5th, 2010

    I completely and totally agree with this.

    In recent years, feminism has become totally unorganized because all we do is sit around fighting with each other. Recently I was forwarded a blog post – “Can Republicans be feminists?” The author assured her readers that Republicans could be feminists as long as they didn’t vote. Wtf? How is that any better than a sorority? It’s basically saying, “You can join our club if you give up your basic rights to voting.”

    Feminism is about women and men being equal. Plain and simple. Why do we fight when we need to make sure that women are getting equal pay and that there are stronger punishments for domestic abuse and rape?

  • Chocolate Tort @ at 11:59 am, August 5th, 2010

    That’s a great response to the door-opening straw man that gets raised SO often against feminists. Nice. I always hold doors open for the people walking behind me, even though I’m a lady! It’s like people of every gender do it out of courtesy for people of ever gender, or something.

  • Zoe @ at 1:09 pm, August 5th, 2010

    Haha. I love when people get all “So you don’t want guys to be chivalrous anymore?” Well, I would sort of rather prefer that everyone is polite to everyone, regardless of gender. I hold doors for men and women, young and old, just as I would like them to do for me when it seems appropriate.

  • Roni @ at 2:51 pm, August 5th, 2010

    I completely agree with this. Thanks for pointing out that gender discrimination is as bad as any other kind of discrimination. Also, if someone’s behind me I’ll hold the door open– it’s just polite. But, I think it’s a little unnecessary for a guy to run up, hold the door open for me, and wait until I go in/out.

  • Ryan @ at 11:56 pm, August 5th, 2010

    Wow you mean you see a man behind you, open the door, stand to the side of that door and let him enter before you? Do you do this while on a date as well? Do you split the bill while on a date also?

  • Ryan @ at 12:11 am, August 6th, 2010

    “We believe that every person everywhere deserves to be treated with dignity, respect and to live free from discrimination.”

    Really??? Can you tell me when you will stop discriminating against men with “women first” Affirmative Action” laws in college admissions, and business hiring?

    Can you tell me why the Stimulus package was devoted to women upon the request of feminists though 80% of all jobs lost have been to men? (Read article No Country For Burly Men) by Christina Hoff Summers.

    Can you tell me why feminists are trying to add “women first” provisions to the House Financial Reform Bill?

    Can you tell me why you have 7 Federal offices on women’s health while men and boys have none?

    Can you tell me why men don’t have the right to play a meaningful role in the lives of our children after divorce? Can you tell me why you socially coerce men to pay for you on a date? Can you tell me why you have the right to your bodies and the fruits of its labor and men do not? Can you tell me why men are forced to financially support women after divorce and why women can not support themselves?

  • Steph @ at 2:05 am, August 6th, 2010

    Hey Ryan! Let’s take a look at your posts, bit by bit, okay? Your stuff in italics.

    [I]Wow you mean you see a man behind you, open the door, stand to the side of that door and let him enter before you?[/I]
    I’m pretty sure that’s not what she means. Even if it is, as long as that’s what she does irrespective of the gender of the other person, then who really gives a fuck? [I]Do you split the bill while on a date also?[/I]
    who the he’ll doesn’t? If you’re making similar earnings, why wouldn’t you split the bill?

    [I]Really??? Can you tell me when you will stop discriminating against men with “women first” Affirmative Action” laws in college admissions, and business hiring?

    [/I]when any semblance of equality gets approached? For srs, affirmative action helps to undo centuries of oppression and lack of privilege. Honestly, affirmative action and its type are sorely needed. When women and other minorities are sytematically opressed, we need something on our side to help make things even.
    [I]Can you tell me why the Stimulus package was devoted to women upon the request of feminists though 80% of all jobs lost have been to men? (Read article No Country For Burly Men) by Christina Hoff Summers.[/I]
    first off, the funds allocated after the campaigning of groups like NOW and NARAL, while statistically significant, aren’t emblematic of the ARRA as a whole. And Hoff Summers is a noted opponent of programs which help women in any way, and despite some googling, I couldn’t find anyone who echoed her statements who wasn’t affiliated in some way with the MRA movement.
    [I]Can you tell me why feminists are trying to add “women first” provisions to the House Financial Reform Bill?[/I]
    see above. Also, ’cause they’re needed?
    [I]Can you tell me why you have 7 Federal offices on women’s health while men and boys have none?[/I]
    which seven? Even counting the offices of Breast Cancer, Domestic Violence, as well as subsidaries of Women’s Health, I get five, tops. And which men’s issues don’t get federal offices [b]that should[/b]?

    [I] Can you tell me why men don’t have the right to play a meaningful role in the lives of our children after divorce?[/I]
    Women end up as the primary caregiver most of the time, and the custody system is designed to favor the primary caregiver in awarding custody. If men were the primary caregivers, they would tend to win custody.
    And while joint physical custody is rare, joint [b]legal[/b] custody is pretty much the norm.

    [I]Can you tell me why you socially coerce men to pay for you on a date?[/I]
    when was the last time you went on a date, dude? The fifties? Maybe some chicks do that shit, but it’s [b]not the norm[/b] anymore.

    [I]Can you tell me why you have the right to your bodies and the fruits of its labor and men do not?[/I]
    because they’re [b]ours, not men’s[/b].
    This, to me, is really telling. All of your arguments boil down to this one sentence: “tell me why [women] have the right to [their] bodies … and men do not?”

    also, by “fruits of its labor”, do you mean [b]babies[/b]? There’s a bit of an imbalance in terms of costs to have a baby dude. Not sure if you remember this, but it takes [b]nine months[/b] to pop one of those suckers out. Nine months of the [b]mother’s[/b] time, to be specific. Screw off, if that’s seriously a concern of yours.
    [I]Can you tell me why men are forced to financially support women after divorce[/I]
    because it costs money to raise a kid, and as mentioned above, women tend to be the primary caregivers of children? Also, divorce? You know most of us are teenagers, right? I don’t even have a girlfriend, let alone an ended marriage with kids and child support.
    [I]…and why women can not support themselves?[/I]
    idk maybe that whole 76 cents on the dolls? Thin I keep hearing about?

    In closing, “tell me why [women] have the right to [their] bodies … and men do not?” disgusts me, and I don’t think I’m alone.
    [/I]

  • Steph @ at 2:06 am, August 6th, 2010

    Ah shoot. I forgot HTML doesn’t work. [I]yourstuffhere[/I]
    [b]bold for emphasis[/b]
    hopefully that doesn’t take away from my actual post.

  • Ryan @ at 4:22 am, August 6th, 2010

    /I]when any semblance of equality gets approached?

    Oh you must mean the type of equality where women now earn 60% of college degrees….that equality?

    Or how about the fact that women hold 60% of the nations wealth…that equality?

    Or maybe you mean the type where the vast majority of men’s and societies resources are trasfered to women over men…that equality?

    Or maybe you mean that women dispute claiming to be equal use their sexuality to coerce men to pay for them and support them…that equality?

    Or how about the fact that a woman’s “choice” to be the primary caregiver (a choice she does not give men by the way) is made to be the capitalized liability of a man. How is it that men have to pay for every “choice” women give themselves? Why do you do this to men and call yourselves independent?

    You are no more independent than you ever where,you simply gave yourselves choices without responsibilites.

  • Ryan @ at 4:30 am, August 6th, 2010

    YOU MEAN THIS WAGE GAP?

    “In 2006, women earned 76.6% as much as men) and is calculated by dividing the median annual earnings for women by the median annual earnings for men.”
    http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763170.htm

    Keep in mind the wage gap is what economists refer to as the Raw Wage Gap i.e. the median average wage disparity of all men and women in the workforce as is outlined above. It is NOT calculated for the same job as pop feminism would like you to believe. Lets continue…

    “After controlling for hours, occupation, parenthood, and other factors known to affect earnings, the research indicates that one-quarter of the pay gap remains unexplained”

    Source: American Association of University Women
    http://www.aauw.org/advocacy/issue_advocacy/actionpages/payequity.cfm

    So where does this leave us. Well the only part of the pay gap that is not explained by women’s OWN CHOICES of hours worked, occupation, parenthood,and other factors of women’s choices there is “one quarter left of the Raw Wage Gap that is unexplained.” Mind you this comes from the American Association of University Women which is one of the most left leaning women’s groups in the country.

    Lets continue……

    So this one quarter that is left, the portion “unexplained” totals to 5.85 cents. Feminists attribute this “unexplained” portion to “sex discrimination”.

    So not only is the 76 cents to the male dollar NOT FOR THE SAME JOB as feminists say but is the RAW WAGE GAP or “calculated by dividing the median annual earnings for women by the median annual earnings for men.” furthermore the actual amount of this gap that is left after WOMEN’S OWN CHOICES ARE FACTORED IN is 5.85 cents. This amount according to the AAUW is “unexplained”.

    Should women be given jobs first before men because of their own choices, many of which are financed by males busting their ass 9 to 5 to enable these wonderful choices that women have?

  • Emily @ at 5:30 am, August 6th, 2010

    OK, moving away from Ryan and his concerns that teenage feminists are ruining everything…
    It’s interesting how attitudes to feminism change depending on who you talk to. In high school I didn’t really know any girls that would describe themselves as feminists (at least not openly), but now I’m in uni most girls I know would either say they are feminists or that they at least agree with what feminism stands for. Even those planning to be stay-at-home mums after they graduate. I don’t know if this because of greater exposure to feminism or just an indication of the sort of people I hang out with at uni. It would be good to see a greater understanding of what feminism really is in schools. Maybe then it wouldn’t have taken me so long to realise just how much feminism speaks to me!

  • Ryan @ at 12:39 pm, August 6th, 2010

    Hello Steph,

    Sorry it takes so long to hold a conversation here. It just depends on the moderator as to whether comments even show up at all. If I have a compelling viewpoint in response to yours the comment may not be allowed at all.

  • Ryan @ at 12:43 pm, August 6th, 2010

    There are currently several comments awaiting moderation. I hope you stay tuned.

  • Lisa @ at 4:24 pm, August 6th, 2010

    Ryan, just out of curiosity, what is your view on equality? You’re sitting here rambling on and on about how women are now oppressing men, yet you don’t seem to give any solution. You just complain. So what’s your big idea on how women can have “choices with responsibilities?”

  • K8 AH @ at 4:26 pm, August 6th, 2010

    @ Ryan. Yes I do.

  • Ryan @ at 9:30 pm, August 6th, 2010

    Do you mean this wage gap???

    “In 2006, women earned 76.6% as much as men) and is calculated by dividing the median annual earnings for women by the median annual earnings for men.”
    w w w. infoplease . com/ipa/A0763170 . htm

    Keep in mind the wage gap is what economists refer to as the Raw Wage Gap i.e. the median average wage disparity of all men and women in the workforce as is outlined above. It is NOT calculated for the same job as pop feminism would like you to believe. Lets continue…

    “After controlling for hours, occupation, parenthood, and other factors known to affect earnings, the research indicates that one-quarter of the pay gap remains unexplained”

    Source: American Association of University Women
    w w w . aauw . org /advocacy/issue_advocacy/actionpages/payequity.cfm

    So where does this leave us. Well the only part of the pay gap that is not explained by women’s OWN CHOICES of hours worked, occupation, parenthood,and other factors of women’s choices there is one quarter left of the Raw Wage Gap that is unexplained. The portion “unexplained” totals to 5.85 cents. Feminists attribute this “unexplained” portion to “sex discrimination”.

    So not only is the 76 cents to the male dollar NOT FOR THE SAME JOB as feminists say but is the RAW WAGE GAP or “calculated by dividing the median annual earnings for women by the median annual earnings for men.” furthermore the actual amount of this gap that is left after WOMEN’S OWN CHOICES ARE FACTORED IN is 5.85 cents. This amount according to the AAUW is “unexplained”.

  • Ryan @ at 9:35 pm, August 6th, 2010

    K8 AH @ at 4:26 pm, August 6th, 2010
    @ Ryan. Yes I do.

    @ K8 AH
    Sorry for the confusion. One person allowed my posting by the American Association of University Women and another must have seen the Raw Wage Gap info saw that I had sources for it and pulled down my posting.

    It’s not that I broke any moderation rules. I think contribution by men and boys is only allowed here if you agree with the moderators. I’m sorry for the confusion and would really like to engage in conversation with you.

  • Tessa @ at 10:52 pm, August 6th, 2010

    @Ryan:

    1. You do know that Affirmative Action in college admissions benefits men, right? Because of the fact that women make up such a large percentage of students in college, men are given a huge advantage over women in college admissions. Just read this: http://www.mindingthecampus.com/…/the_quiet_preference_for_men_i.html – Cached

    2. What the hell is wrong with a women paying half the dinner bill? It honestly sounds like you’re just making up everything about women coercing men to pay for them. Because that’s definitely NOT what women are doing. I agree with Stephanie in that women generally make up the primary caregivers. Women aren’t coercing men into not taking care of their child or whatever. It usually falls on the mother’s shoulders through structural inequalities.

    3. Feminism is not just about women. Feminism works to deconstruct masculinity that is based on violence and dominance. How is that not good for everyone, boys and girls alike? The gender construct is too strict and oppressive, and blurring those lines is good for EVERYONE.

    4. Feminism is important to secure women’s rights. What about abortion rights? A woman’s right to decide what she wants to do with her body? Pro-Choice and Anti-Choice debates are so heated, and it’s important for feminist groups to advocate the Pro-Choice side. If you watch the news, you know that abortion restrictions are happening, and that’s a clear violation of a person’s right over her own body.

    All in all, feminism is a GOOD THING because it helps both men and women.

    I think, Ryan,you need to read some more about feminism to fully grasp how awesome it is. I know I had to. Read some feminist texts: Jessica Valenti is a great start. Or Betty Friedan “The Feminine Mystique”

  • Ryan @ at 12:35 am, August 7th, 2010

    Thanks for the reply but for some reason i am not allowed to speak here. I will seek somewhere else where i am welcome.

    The moderator keeps deleting posts based upon subjective feelings and interpretation rather than actual violation of comment policy. This is always a bad sign when free speech is censored.

  • Ryan @ at 12:42 am, August 7th, 2010

    Attn: moderator please approve post “you mean this wage gap”

    The post is in no way in violation of comment policy. I know this topic is difficult to face but it is important to hear the ideas of others and allow them to speak.

    With all due respect, Ryan

  • Steph @ at 12:43 am, August 7th, 2010

    @Ryan: I look forward to deconstructing them. And I’ve never known Julie to not allow a comment based on the material it contains (barring obvious spam) – usually, she let’s the community respond, kinda like is going on now. I’m sure she’s just busy -I don’t think there’s a whole lot of administrative stuff in the way, just the usual delays that come from only having one person on the admin-squad.

    Anyways, on to your post. (i think I’ve got the HTML unborked this time :crosses fingers: )
    when any semblance of equality gets approached?

    Oh you must mean the type of equality where women now earn 60% of college degrees….that equality? 
    This got adressed above, but I also want to say: more boys and young men are dropping out of high school and college than ever before. Helping them stay the course isn’t just important, it’s a necessity. A feminist one too, at that. 

    Or how about the fact that women hold 60% of the nations wealth…that equality?
    I assume you’re talking about the USA here? You have been in the past. 
    That said, this is preposterously stupid. I’m not even answering this one until you can find me a source that confirms your data. I found a source that included all household expenditures as ‘women’s spending’ – is that the one you were referring to? Worldwide, women make up 70% of the absolute poor(http://newsblaze.com/story/20080916135110tsop.nb/topstory.html)and misleading data collection about the USA doesn’t fix everything.  

    Or maybe you mean the type where the vast majority of men’s and societies resources are trasfered to women over men…that equality?
    Again, what the everloving fuck? Sources for your crazy claims, please. I can’t even guess at what you’re trying to get across here. 

    Or maybe you mean that women dispute claiming to be equal use their sexuality to coerce men to pay for them and support them…that equality?
    Are you saying that women “use their sexuality to coerce men…[into supporting] them”? Just trying to make sure I get you here. ‘Cause that’s pretty much attacking all women for something that maybe a small minority do, and even then, they don’t deserve to be attacked for it. Slut-shaming = totally not cool.  
    Or how about the fact that a woman’s “choice” to be the primary caregiver
    ’cause there’s no outside pressure there, eh? Couldn’t possibly be that women are expected to be caregivers and if they buck the social expectations placed on them society does it’s best to force them to conform. 
    (a choice she does not give men by the way)dude, ask a single mother if she’d like another honest, trustworthy person to be there to help take care of the kid(s) – I guarantee you you’re going to hear a resounding ‘yes’. Please, do this.  

    is made to be the capitalized liability of a man. How is it that men have to pay for every “choice” women give themselves?
    Um, dude. Are you talking about child support again? If so, doesn’t it make sense that since both parents have legal custody, both contribute to the expenses of raising a child? If not, then what responsibility should the (in this case father) have over the child, if they can’t be a responsible adult themselves?

    Why do you do this to men and call yourselves independent?
    Again, dude, we’re pretty much all teenagers here. Also, see most of what I’ve posted in response. You’re being really anti-woman and heterocentric, and you rail at us for being mean ‘ol single mothers. Most of us aren’t. Most of us are in high school. We are not the ones to be asking these questions.   

  • Steph @ at 1:02 am, August 7th, 2010

    Also, the comment policy prohibits comments which are “hateful or threatening”, which, honestly, all of your comments have been in one way or another, whether you acknowledge it yourself or not. Maybe take a step back and reread your comments and their responses?

  • Ryan @ at 5:45 am, August 7th, 2010

    “hateful or threatening”

    I am not being hateful. It is unfortunate that your group has not clearly defined this as it is obviously open to the subjective interpretation of your moderator.
    One who undoubtedly has been brainwashed to see every legitament point of conversation I make as some sort of threat by “the patriarchy” or “misogyny”.

    Everything seems to pass through a gender feminist filter which effectively makes any compelling statement I make that illicits an emotional response be declared as “hateful” or “threatening”.

    You would be wise to note that this effectivlely bars any type of objectivly and reasonably dissenting or contradictary intelectual discourse.

  • Emily @ at 6:37 am, August 7th, 2010

    Ryan,

    As someone who has worked extensively with a nationally ranked debate team I would hardly call your ‘arguments’ persuasive.

    Perhaps a bit manipulative in the language, but that’s about it.

    From the comments I have read your “argument” consists of nothing but unsupported and under researched statistics, rhetorical questions, and repetition.

    While I have no doubt that your…beliefs have some granule of truth or logic deep deep down somewhere, as most arguments do, the way you express them are very confrontive and angry (which could be construed as hateful and threatening) which makes it hard to find that granule.

  • Emily @ at 6:58 am, August 7th, 2010

    Ryan,

    Futhermore Steph has made some rather excellent points.

    I’m not well versed or educated on affirmative action laws (other than hearing many places are chucking them out) so I can’t comment on those.

    But I can comment on a few other things.

    First, when you stated that 80% of all jobs lost were lost by men (which seems grossly misstated, though I could be wrong. I’d love for another source) that is most likely because men earn about a dollar to a woman’s 76 cents. So of course more men lost their jobs, it’s more expensive to keep them on when they can get away with paying a woman with the same qualifications to do the same job for less.

    You mentioned that women hold 60% of wealth in this country( which you never explicitly stated so I can’t state and specific statistics for any specific country) but Steff was right when she said that women are a huge disenfranchised population world-wide. Women make up the majority of the abused, poor, and diseased on this planet. I would love for you to explain this to me in any other way that doesn’t include misogyny somehow.

    And finally ‘women use thier sexuality to coerce men’ What the everloving f*uck is this? You, my friend, have been watching too much television and have seen too many ads. But maybe I’m wrong. You never explicitly stated how women coerce men into doing things for them. And because you didn’t, and because you never really explicitly stated a lot of things, I can’t take you as anything more than ignorant and bigoted.

    (Oh and this little gem “Can you tell me why you have the right to your bodies and the fruits of its labor and men do not?” would make me laugh if it wasn’t too busy tear my soul to shreads. As a wise, wise person once said “Feminism is the radical notion that women are people” and therefore have RIGHTS to their own bodies.)

  • Ryan @ at 1:08 pm, August 7th, 2010

    “In 2006, women earned 76.6% as much as men) and is calculated by dividing the median annual earnings for women by the median annual earnings for men.”

    Keep in mind the wage gap is what economists refer to as the Raw Wage Gap i.e. the median average wage disparity of all men and women in the workforce as is outlined above. It is NOT calculated for the same job as pop feminism would like you to believe. Lets continue…
    “After controlling for hours, occupation, parenthood, and other factors known to affect earnings, the research indicates that one-quarter of the pay gap remains unexplained”
    Source: American Association of University Women

    So where does this leave us. Well the only part of the pay gap that is not explained by women’s OWN CHOICES of hours worked, occupation, parenthood,and other factors of women’s choices there is “one quarter left of the Raw Wage Gap that is unexplained.” Mind you this comes from the American Association of University Women which is one of the most left leaning women’s groups in the country.
    Lets continue……
    So this one quarter that is left, the portion “unexplained” totals to 5.85 cents. Feminists attribute this “unexplained” portion to “sex discrimination”.
    So not only is the 76 cents to the male dollar NOT FOR THE SAME JOB as feminists say but is the RAW WAGE GAP or “calculated by dividing the median annual earnings for women by the median annual earnings for men.” furthermore the actual amount of this gap that is left after WOMEN’S OWN CHOICES ARE FACTORED IN is 5.85 cents. This amount according to the AAUW is “unexplained”.

    Should women be given jobs first before men because of their own choices, many of which are financed by males?

  • Steph @ at 4:09 pm, August 7th, 2010

    “In 2006, women earned 76.6% as much as men) and is calculated by dividing the median annual earnings for women by the median annual earnings for men.”
    No problems so far. 

    Keep in mind the wage gap is what economists refer to as the Raw Wage Gap i.e. the median average wage disparity of all men and women in the workforce as is outlined above. It is NOT calculated for the same job as pop feminism would like you to believe.  
    No, of course not. That’s garbage. That said, gender-segregation in jobs is a feminist issue, and the ‘old boy’s club’ is a serious obstacle to women in traditionally male-dominated fields, fields which, for some reason or other, have high wages and few women. Womens’ ‘lack of interest’ is not a significant enough factor: see the arguments raised in these links: Sexism in Science(posted here a couple of days ago) thesis for Athena Unbound from Cambridge University Press SWIFT paper, university of british columbia [.doc file]

    Lets continue…
    Please. 
    “After controlling for hours, occupation, parenthood, and other factors known to affect earnings, the research indicates that one-quarter of the pay gap remains unexplained”
    Source: American Association of University Women

    In a study, Yale University economics professor Joseph G. Altonji and the Under Secretary of Commerce for Economic Affairs Rebecca M. Blank (1999) found that only about 27% of the gender wage gap in each year is explained by differences in such characteristics [citation 1]. In a separate 2003 study, after controlling for variables, only 39% of the gap was explained [citation 2]. Far from 75 percent.    

    So where does this leave us. Well the only part of the pay gap that is not explained by women’s OWN CHOICES of hours worked, occupation, parenthood,and other factors of women’s choices there is “one quarter left of the Raw Wage Gap that is unexplained.”
    Again, see above. One quarter is explained. Also, debunked. While one quarter is due directly to sex discrimination, “most children go on to choose a job that is traditional for their gender…[and] research shows there is a direct correlation between the proportion of men in an occupation and annual compensation”, further intensifying the wage gap. 

    Mind you this comes from the American Association of University Women which is one of the most left leaning women’s groups in the country.
    Yeah, they’re cool people who do good stuff.  
    Lets continue……
    So this one quarter that is left, the portion “unexplained” totals to 5.85 cents. Feminists attribute this “unexplained” portion to “sex discrimination”.

    To direct sex discrimination. There’s also systemic discrimination and the bit where the UMichigan 2003 study I cited above shows that it’s actually about 19 cents due to sex discrimination [citation 2]. 
      
    So not only is the 76 cents to the male dollar NOT FOR THE SAME JOB as feminists say  
    Where does this get said? Citations, please. 
    but is the RAW WAGE GAP or “calculated by dividing the median annual earnings for women by the median annual earnings for men.”
    Yeah, you ranted about this in your first paragraph. 
    furthermore the actual amount of this gap that is left after WOMEN’S OWN CHOICES ARE FACTORED IN is 5.85 cents. This amount according to the AAUW is “unexplained”.
    See UMichigan study, Yale study, UBC paper, etc. 
    Also, what are “WOMEN’S OWN CHOICES”? Childrearing and families? As thoroughly discussed above, there’s huge societal pressure on women to have families, pressure that just isn’t there for men. “choices”, hah. 

    Should women be given jobs first before men because of their own choices, many of which are financed by males?
    Again with this “financed by males” stuff. WHAT YOU MEAN BY THIS, I DO NOT GET.

    Some questions. 
    1: how old are you, approximately?
    2: are you currently divorced?
    3: what do you mean by this “financed by males” thing?

    [1] Altonji, Joseph G. and Rebecca M. Blank, “Race and Gender in the Labor Market,” in Orley Ashenfelter and David Card eds, ‘’Handbook of Labor Economics’’, vol. 3, Elsevier Science B.V., 1999.

    [2] Boraas, S., & Rodgers, W. M., III. (2003). “How does gender play a role in the earnings gap? An update.” ‘’Monthly Labor Review’’, 126 (3), 9-15.

  • Ryan @ at 12:04 am, August 8th, 2010

    Wages of occupations are determined by factors of economics. It has nothing to do with how many men are in the occupation as the determining factor. Economics does not account for gender, market forces do.

    Instead it is men who work longer hours, choose money over personal fulfillment, work the majority of over time and predominate in the high paying “death jobs”.

    Some advise for you, do what men do and you will close your gap.

    Why do men have such incentive to make money and obtain material as well as social status? I’ll let your female biological imperitives and insticts answer that. It is a proven fact that men who have high status and resource potential have more mating opportunities with females. It does not work the same for women and you have the audacity to question why men produce more?

  • Ryan @ at 1:16 pm, August 8th, 2010

    Some questions.
    1: how old are you, approximately?
    2: are you currently divorced?
    3: what do you mean by this “financed by males” thing?

    I’m 31

    no I’ve never been married, and do not have children.

    I mean only a moron would take on the “provider” role. If you so much as provide to a woman IN ANY WAY. It means you are now her care taker and she is the primary care giver to the child.

    Guess who looses in this arrangement when a woman decides she wants a man to play this role from an empty apartment???! No way would I ever marry!

  • Ryan @ at 1:22 pm, August 8th, 2010

    So don’t think I don’t know what feminism is about.

    In short it’s primary goals are to compete against men and succeed over men by force of “women first” and “women only laws”

    It is to get the majority of women into working industry

    It is to provided socialized resource support welfare to females

    It is to force men to support women outside of marriage in cases of No-Fault law which women created.

    You must ask yourself what Independent and Liberated actually means. In an equal society wouldn’t that mean that men are equally Independent and Liberated from female dependence?

    NOTHING HAS CHANGED FOR MEN. You still insist men pay for you on dates, support you while you stay home if you want and support you after divorce… I don’t want any conflict…so please…simply leave men alone or be Independent and Liberated from men like you promised. Please, support your own children.

    Men are not a part of the matriarchal family.

  • Ryan @ at 1:28 pm, August 8th, 2010

    Lisa asks:

    Ryan, just out of curiosity, what is your view on equality?

    Hello Lisa, I wrote a detailed response which was denied by the moderator…I’m sorry.

  • Ryan @ at 1:44 pm, August 8th, 2010

    No the reason 80% of jobs lost in this recession was not because “men make more for the same jobs”

    I already told you how the Raw Wage Gap is measured “In 2006, women earned 76.6% as much as men) and is calculated by dividing the median annual earnings for women by the median annual earnings for men.”

    Men heavily predominate in the manufacturing and construction sectors which got hit hard. These men, statistically many who are divorced have women that are not their wives and children they are not allowed to have meaningful contact with to support.

    Despite men STILL BEING FORCED TO PROVIDE TO WOMEN and that the majority of jobs lost were to men. Women decided they would petition the president to devote the stimulus package to women in industries that were growing and adding jobs on their own. (Read: No Country For Burly Men by Christina Hoff Sommers)

    Subsequently The Atlantic has front page news “The End of Men” it proclaims and on the front of The Economist magazine Rosie the Riveter proclaims “We Did It!”

    Understand this very clearly, I AS A MAN WILL NOT PROVIDE TO A WOMAN. I am penalized and bear liability to do so for her after divorce. I refuse to take on this role. I insist she do it so that I can stay home, take her children away from her if I leave and FORCE her to support me.

    Women are now the direct competition and adversary of men. I know men who have been out of work and placed inside of a cage like an animal because they could not fulfill their provider role to a woman who was not their wife and children she took..

    WAKE UP!!!!!!! WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!

    Support yourselves and your own children AND LEAVE MEN ALONE. Only a fool marries or provides to women. We are not your providers nor your protectors. You are Independent and Liberated. ACT LIKE IT!

  • Ryan @ at 1:49 pm, August 8th, 2010

    Know that men get their unemployment money garnished to provide to independent women while these men struggle to find work in a country that devoted the Stimulus Package to women.

    Women have spit in our face. Women are our competition and adversaries. Men are silently walking away from you and marriage as an institution is dying.

    Again, I understand what you are doing and ask that you leave men alone and don’t expect us to commit to you. Maybe we can hook up or something but THAT IS IT!

  • Tessa @ at 2:33 pm, August 8th, 2010

    “Why do MEN have such incentive to make money and obtain material as well as social status? I’ll let your FEMALE biological imperitives and insticts answer that.”

    What a misogynistic statement! It’s generalizations and stereotypes like these about gender roles that contribute to the structural inequalities in our society. I know plenty of women who work full time and have motivations to expand their career. Likewise, I know plenty of men like that too. Stereotyping based on gender and saying that ONLY MEN HAVE INCENTIVE TO MAKE MONEY AND/OR SUCCEED IS SEXIST!

  • Ryan @ at 4:10 pm, August 8th, 2010

    Are you willing to marry a man that makes less than you and support him while he stays home?

    Are you willing to support him after he leaves you and takes your children? Ate you willing to free men from the provider role in dating,marriage and divorce?

  • Ryan @ at 5:37 pm, August 8th, 2010

    Below is objective information presented in graphical form and does not violate the moderation policy. I respectfully ask that the data be presented.

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_IU3iQnIt6Nc/TBS94FhQmPI/AAAAAAAAAb4/e-iWQV-qzqM/s1600/MMMMM.jpg

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_IU3iQnIt6Nc/S9KUZA0bukI/AAAAAAAAAbA/GIi5TjovN8M/s1600/fertility.jpg

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IU3iQnIt6Nc/SfvQAuMd87I/AAAAAAAAAJ0/_Q3YQiwyaV0/s1600-h/ScreenShot001.jpg

  • Ryan @ at 8:59 pm, August 8th, 2010

    I would like to add that Independence and Liberation for men involves freeing ourselves from your demands to be dependent upon men.

    Your inability to be dependent upon men to pay for and support you in dating, marriage and ESPECIALLY after divorce is the definition of female Independence and Liberation.

    Whether you like it or not men are currently and will continue to establish equality and Independence from your dependency. Men have no obligation to support a woman and her children. We have no obligation to the matriarchal family.

  • Ryan @ at 9:09 pm, August 8th, 2010

    “I know plenty of women who work full time and have motivations to expand their career”

    Good, I hope you are willing to marry a man that makes less than you. I hope you make it PERFECTLY clear to your dates that you will pay your fair share. I hope you are willing to support your lower earning husband while he cares for the children.

    Or that you both work while placing the child in government or corporate day care after you BOTH are afforded parental leave from work.

    I hope when you divorce him that you don’t expect a man to support you.

  • Ryan @ at 9:19 pm, August 8th, 2010

    Oh and by the way I am no fool. To suggest to me that males are inherently valuable and attractive to women and worthy to mate for the simple fact that we exist as women are to men is an outright lie.

    Unless men become, unless we produce women will not have us. Until you stop legislating and competing against males for the very resources you demand we obtain and provide to you you will not be our equal nor will you be independent.

  • Steph @ at 1:07 am, August 9th, 2010

    Are you willing to marry a man that makes less than you and support him while he stays home?
    No. But then again, I’m a lesbian, so the whole ‘man’ thing might be an issue. 
    The rest of what you wrote is bullshit and isn’t worth taking apart. Honestly. 

  • Ryan @ at 1:50 am, August 9th, 2010

    “I’m lesbian”

    Well then that explains your class conflict with men doesn’t it. You have nothing in common with the issues that pertain to the rest of us.

    You should have said so before.

  • Mollie @ at 6:20 am, August 9th, 2010

    Ryan, your last comment made me laugh. Not only was that sexist, but it was homophobic also.

    So her being a lesbian makes her completely alienated from all men because she’d rather not date them? Why does her sexuality have anything to do with her points of view on gender issues?

    I’ve noticed when someone starts running out of things to say in an argument, they start shooting the messenger and making personal attacks instead of looking at what they’re saying.

  • Ryan @ at 7:37 am, August 9th, 2010

    No, it is common sence molly. Use your critical thinking skills. The issues at hand do not concern her, she can not relate.

    Lesbians are much like men. In my personal experience they do not like men. I’ve been in a fist fight with a lesbian before ok. Trust me, they don’t have much in common with most men and women as far as the issues are concerned.

  • Steph @ at 11:09 am, August 9th, 2010

    Ryan: comment number six, about halfway through.
    ” I don’t even have a girlfriend, let alone an ended marriage with kids and child support.”
    that probably counts as “[having said] so before”. Nice reading comprehension.
    The issues at hand do not concern her, she can not relate.
    The issues at hand concer me just fine.

    Also, resorting to anecdotes to argue a point? No, no, no. They can serve to reinforce data, but without data it’s a bad tactic. You’re panicking, aren’t you?

  • Steph @ at 12:45 pm, August 9th, 2010

    Oh, and because I missed your ‘secret weapon’, the graphs:
    Graph one shows a decline in marriage rates. Graph two, therefore, arrives directly as a consequence of graph one. Neither actually support your point. 
    Graph three: the spike is far more likely to be due to more open divorce laws not predicated on “sin”. Cohabitation as a norm started after ’77 – the late eighties, maybe, but not ’77.

    Your ‘arguments’ are failing. Get new ones or leave.

  • Ryan @ at 3:17 pm, August 9th, 2010

    I tried posting the graphs alone but they were not allowed. I will try again later.

    The issues at hand do not concern you because you are not subject to them in a biological, lawful as well as social sense IN MANY if not all ways.

    You be wise to understand that the nature of gender relations, marriage and family have changed drastically. It is imperative for men to withdraw from the provider role in entirety.

    Males and females are now largely separate socio-political and socio-economic classes who are in competition with eachother. Look at the gender secular laws which set women in competition with men for resources.

    Secular laws by gender, race or religion Is against the constitution of the United States, the human rights act and equal protection clauses there in.

  • Steph @ at 4:48 pm, August 9th, 2010

    Look at the gender secular laws which set women in competition with men for resources.
    which ones? The ERA was never ratified, and amendments 15 and 19 only deal with suffrage.

    Also, you persist in treating rights as a zero-sum game: whenever women gain rights, men lose them. That’s not the case, though. The 19th Amendment didn’t take away men’s voting rights, the 15th didn’t hurt whit men, it goes on and on. Rights are not a zero-sum issue.

  • Ryan @ at 7:12 pm, August 10th, 2010

    Try the diversion of the Stimulus Package to yourselves though 80% of jobs lost in this recession have been to men in male industries for starters.

    Read article: No Country For Burly Men by Christina Hoff Sommers.

    How about Affirmative Action for college admissions, women only loans and scholarships, job hirings, government contracts to businesses simply because their owned by a woman, Title IX, unfair healthcare allocation with 7 offices on women’s health, and now they are adding “women first” provisions to the house financial reform bill.

    Is the any way that women can accomplish on their own without discrimination against men?

  • Ryan @ at 7:25 pm, August 10th, 2010

    “whenever women gain rights, men lose them. That’s not the case, though”

    Oh really, I know a lot of men who could have used that stimulus money who are now getting their unemployment checks GARNISHED in order to support independent women by way of woman support alimony. I know a lot of men who could really use a job right now.

    How about making sex and conception a mutual act requiring mutual responsibility and as such giving each sex the choice to abort responsibility for conception?

    How about the fact that women removed ALL marriage laws that gave them obligations and thus liabilities in divorce. How about the fact that you view children as your property while men have no right to equal and meaningful contact with our children.

    How about the fact that women have ownership and control over their bodies while male bodies are forced to work and give you money or we are placed inside of a cage like an animal?

  • Lisa @ at 6:19 pm, August 11th, 2010

    Ryan, you know how on TV forty year old single women are always bitter and think they are always right and everyone is wrong?
    Because you’re acting exactly like a forty year old single woman from a sitcom.

  • Ryan @ at 9:30 pm, August 11th, 2010

    Hello Lisa,

    When you are done trying to insult me with name calling I am looking forward to an intelligent response to my comments.,

  • Dume di Paoli @ at 11:16 am, July 13th, 2012

    “So, you know how you’re a feminist?”
    “Yes.”
    “And yet you still expect men to open doors for you?”
    “No, I expect the person going in through the door in front of me to slam it in my face.”

    This quote reminds me of my days at school. Everyone knew that I’m a feminist, I never did anything to hide it. The two “alpha males” of the class were both political and religious fundamentalists. I still remember actually having a door slammed in my face, like in the quote. I also remember when one of the “alpha males” spat on my chair so I wouldn’t sit at the same table with him. Or when he was supposed to help me with some preparation before the matura(Polish version of baccalaureate/A-level). They brought the papers I was supposed to handle, threw them to the floor at his feet and said”pick them up, bitch”. I refused. My form teacher, who was present reacted in a typical way: “he didn’t do it on purpose. What is your problem? Pick it up”.
    “Know your place, dog” said the “alpha-male”. That was regular bullying. I never got any help or councelling from the school.

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