Feminism | Posted by Zoe Y on 10/14/2010

Military Draft and Reverse Sexism

should women be drafted?

should women be drafted?

One or two years ago, I was taking my first Women’s Studies class at my college and it began my infatuation with feminism. Naturally, I had mixed feelings at first between agreeing with my teacher’s points of discussion and not wanting to announce the fact that I was a feminist, fearing criticism from friends. During this transition period into my self-identification as a feminist, I had an experience that I look back on with a bit of regret. I was in my apartment with my roommate and a friend of hers. We were discussing how I was taking the Women’s Studies class and how I was really enjoying it. My roommate’s male friend then said “I’ll support women’s rights when they aim for complete equality, instead of picking and choosing. When they fight for the right to be included in the military draft, then I’ll support them.” Right at that moment, it seemed like a fair response, so I agreed and let the conversation drift from the topic.

Now I’ve looked back at this conversation many times and wondered if I should have said something.  But what? What is the feminist stance on the military draft? I don’t imagine many women sincerely wish to be included in the military draft but it IS an example of inequality. In this case, men are forced to do something while women, too fragile, are not made to do so. Is it fair to try and fight for the good things that men are privileged with but keep silent about the small advantages over men that we are afforded? My best response that I’ve come up with since is the fact that I don’t think the military draft should be instated at all, requiring neither men nor women to be enlisted.

What are your thoughts on this issue of the military draft? What other examples of reverse sexism have you encountered as responses to discussions of feminism?

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  • Katherine C. @ at 11:39 am, October 14th, 2010

    Women should be drafted if men are. We have proved that we are no weaker, no more fragile, than our male counterparts on the battlefield.
    The biggest problem I have with the military is the amount of sexual assault in the ranks. With this in mind, one could argue that, knowing this, women should not be forced into that kind of situation. But if women were drafted, there would be about equal numbers of men and women in the military and so assault/harassment would drop as women became less isolated.

  • Alex Catgirl @ at 12:42 pm, October 14th, 2010

    Most wars are over macho crap, as most women have no patience, let alone any desire to be “Macho” we should be left out their stupidity.

    Conscription and wars of choice will end when men have decide they have had enough of archaic standards of manhood and clean up their own house.

  • Natasha @ at 1:04 pm, October 14th, 2010

    Is everyone aware that women aren’t allowed to serve in the infantry level of the military? This means women aren’t supposed to be involved with direct combat in the US military. I’m pretty sure this is why women aren’t drafted, since the draft’s purpose is mainly for combat. There are feminists and women fighting for a woman’s right to serve in infantry in the first place, so that fight would most likely have to be won first, then i would imagine women could be drafted. But if you are, like me, against the draft, then why would you fight for women to be included? I would rather fight to end it completely, it’s extremely against the whole land of the free thing, not American values. But the draft hasn’t been used in decades, so it’s not having a big affect on the country now anyway.

  • Natasha @ at 1:08 pm, October 14th, 2010

    When i say why would you fight for women to be included? I mean strictly the draft, not the fight for admission into the infantry, just in case anyone misunderstood. The ideal in my opinion is all genders being able to voluntarily join any part of the military and no one of any gender ever being forced to join.

  • Jessica @ at 2:47 pm, October 14th, 2010

    That’s an interesting point. I think there are lots of things to consider. Firstly, someone here said about rapes and sexual harassment risks that are really high in this kind of enviroment. Also, we have to consider that an army fights against other countries. Even if your own army is balanced and respectful, the other one might be male-exclusive, and machista etc etc. To change this draft situation, we’d have to change everything, otherwise, it’d way too dangerous. I mean, we can be as strong as men, but they’re not the target in this kind of situation, and against arms, bombs and stuff, no one has really the strenght to fight against.
    And the army and the whole culture around wars are made of male models, male fantasies, male ideals. And all of this male definition coming from a machista idea. So, how do we deal with this? Also, there’s the fact that we can go to the other way, without forcing anyone. But it’s way too idealistic, i guess, the whole world (and not just one country) and its conceptions about war would have to change.

  • Zoe @ at 8:20 pm, October 14th, 2010

    @Natasha No, I wasn’t aware that women aren’t allowed to serve in infantry.

    So it seems to me that the feminist response to this question is not to fight for women to be included in the draft, but rather fight for men to be excluded. Just abolish the whole thing.

    And yeah, the draft hasn’t exactly been used for years and it’s not really a serious concern at the moment. But I’ve had it brought up rhetorically in situations like I described in the post (leave it to non-feminists to really nitpick about the unlikely).

  • Camille @ at 11:00 pm, October 14th, 2010

    @ seth (at the risk of feeding the troll):

    So you’re saying that you ‘hate’ people campaigning against stuff like this?

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/new-face-and-a-new-smile-for-girl-who-felt-the-talibans-wrath-2106118.html

  • Seth @ at 12:59 am, October 15th, 2010

    @camille. Unlike feminists I don’t see this as a gender issue at all but rather a human one. I can honestly say that it is men that are the vast majority of victims of violence.

    You think you are special because you are a woman but the welbeing, safety and comfort of men is no less important than a woman’s. I don’t feel sorry for women at all. No matter how hard you try to make men responsible for you we are not buying it. FEND FOR YOURSELVES AND LEAVE MEN ALONE!

    You bear the privlege and comforts born by male sacrifice and all you can think of is yourself and your own wants, choices and desires, your own pain and discomfort.

  • Seth @ at 1:15 am, October 15th, 2010

    Oh yea my answer. YES women should be required to serve their country just as men are.

    Women should be treated no differently but it is women themselves, particularly feminists who demand that women get special treatment. Most men now a days resent what women have done. Many men don’t respect women for it.

    They say chivalry is dead…I hope so.Men don’t owe women anything.

    You should stand on your own two feet. Instead you use sex to get men to do things for you like pay on a date. You expect men to support you while you stay home. You say its a choice for women to work or not but will NEVER LET MEN STAY HOME WILL YOU???? You also expect men to support you after a divorce, WHY??

    You expect us to treat you special just because you have a vagina. You play helpless and weak, you play the victim of men, The Patriarchy.

    Feminists are the enemy of men and women also. Men hate feminists and so do women. You are a sexist and exclusionary ideology that brings nothing but conflict and strife between men and women.

  • Steph @ at 2:34 am, October 15th, 2010

    @Ryan:
    Using a new name now? You’re fooling a negative amount of people.

  • Minnah @ at 3:30 am, October 15th, 2010

    Brilliant post, I’ve often wondered about the contradictions that exist within feminism, and I agree with your statement about enlisting neither men nor women.

    @Steph: Just what I was thinking! the trolls are getting smarter :)

  • blakerivers @ at 6:12 am, October 15th, 2010

    Is it fair to try and fight for the good things that men are privileged with but keep silent about the small advantages over men that we are afforded?

    The answer to this question is unequivocally “no.” That doesn’t mean that it is necessarily “wrong” to hold onto the advantages that women have, but it certainly violates the rules of “fairness” and “equality.”

    By the way, you’ll find an answer to the author’s general question here, on NOW’s website:

    http://www.now.org/issues/military/policies/draft2.html

    Should we interpret that as an official answer?

    I completely agree with Natasha.

    @Jessica: Yes. There should never be a draft, not for any country. Government is of the people, by the people, for the people. If the people don’t want to fight, then that is what the decision is. What right does government EVER have to oppose the majority decision of its citizens? It’s the choice of the people, not the government, whether or not the nation will be conquered by another.

  • blakerivers @ at 6:25 am, October 15th, 2010

    And yes, war is a HUGELY masculine driven mentality and culture. Masculinity is interesting, you know, if you’ve ever thought about it for a while. Masculinity (by conventional understanding) is heavily associated with strength, willpower, fight for progress and change (in a primitive way), adventurism, monomania, and other proactive qualities.

    Sometimes that can be a good thing: as in scientific progress, taking risks to try new things, recklessly seeking discovery, vanquishing evil (in the metaphorical sense), etc. But at the same time extreme, unbalanced masculinity leads to horrifying effects such as violence, war, insensitivity, cruelty, and other heinous abuses of humanity.

    We all have a balance of masculinity and femininity in us. Right now the human race needs to tone way down it’s masculine nature and balance it with femininity.

    You can’t blame humans, though. When resources were limited and natural disaster and danger threatened us (in prehistory) extreme masculinity was NEEDED to preserve the human race from extinction. But we don’t live like that anymore. We don’t have to worry about being eaten or having our water hole stolen. So we need to embrace the gentleness that femininity has to offer and calm down the masculine aspect of our culture. Our greatest threat to our survival right now is ourselves: our out-of-control-on-steroids masculine culture.

    I hope y’all understand what I’m saying.

  • Nano (Nyxie) @ at 6:53 am, October 15th, 2010

    I vote simply making a draft illegal, but it’s far more complicated than that.

    The draft is a politically enigma. Technically, it’s legal, but absolutely no one would ever approve of a draft, especially Congress, whose kids will be just as required to go as anyone else’s. Not to mention, there’s the slight issue of the Army, if it ever institutes of draft, being forced to repeal DADT – otherwise, everyone would claim they’re gay to get out of it. So socially speaking, the draft is already illegal.

    But on the political level, no one will ever move to remove it from our law, because it’s a sign of willingness for America to bow out of/forfeit/lose wars, and in some cases even considered unpatriotic, even by those who would vehemently oppose going to war or sending their family and friends to war.

    A draft is incredibly unlikely to happen…but if it does, a.) women should be drafted, and b.) allowed into the same military/combat capacity as men. It’s incredibly unfair for men to live with this potential terror while women get off scott free on this one. (And for the record, I am female).

    @Seth: Why, hello there, Ryan.

  • Zoe @ at 12:35 pm, October 15th, 2010

    Great, I was really hoping to get trolls on this post. Mm.

    @Seth “Women should be treated no differently but it is women themselves, particularly feminists who demand that women get special treatment.” In the case of this blog post, I’m afraid it was men who decided that women were too weak for fighting and therefore should be excluded from the draft. Just sayin’.

    @Blakerivers I like what you are saying. War all through the ages has been heavily, heavily masculine. I believe that if we can finally start including more women in the conflict decision making, many more wars will be avoided and compromising will be utilized.

  • Seth @ at 1:19 pm, October 15th, 2010

    @steph and minnah

    Why…..am I able to post as Ryan?

  • Seth @ at 1:50 pm, October 15th, 2010

    -”I’m afraid it was men who decided that women were too weak for fighting”-

    Women are to weak, that’s why feminism is about bestowing privleges and choices for women that are supported by male sacrifice.

    Look at everything around you right now. It all came from the earth by male work and sacrifice. Women are to weak to mine and obtain raw materials, so you make men do it. Men produce territory and resources. Men are also the ones who utilize resources intelligently and women can not. All the things around you were, acquired, designed and built by men from the carpet you walk on to the house you sit in. It is ONLY men that keep electricity flowing to your house and that heat your home in the winter. ALL the lines between countries were drawn in the blood and sacrifice of men NOT women..

    Women will never do for men what we do for you. Without men, women would be living in grass huts. You would all be living like savages.

    NOW please leave men alone, get your own homes, your own jobs and fend for yourselves. Create your single mother familes please.

    Men should not have to support a woman and her children. Children should be taken to the nearest corporate or government child care facility shortly after birth. Women think they can lay around the house with the children. Get out and get a job like an adult.

    Men don’t have any responsibility for your welfare….You are right about one thing, men treat women like children.

    Women should fend for themselves and earn their own way like men have to do. You won’t will you, you will always get things through men than get them yourself.

    For a gender which insists on being equal with men you sure play like a pussy, like a girl when it comes to being a fair and proper competitor and adversary. Men should give women no quarter, no breaks, no special privleges but we do anyway..you are to weak.

    That’s why you have affirmative action women first law, you can not compete with men no matter how hard you try. You will always be dependent on men. There is no such thing as female independence. Now man up already and stop being weak little girls, stop being a pussy and fend for yourselves.

  • Zoe @ at 3:03 pm, October 15th, 2010

    @Seth I think it’s funny that you keep using pussy as an insult, a symbol of weakness, when it was a pussy that gave birth to you.

  • Seth @ at 3:48 pm, October 15th, 2010

    @Zoe. Am I supposed to be impressed? You were born with that ability, it is nothing women accomplished.

    What you mean to say is “were inherently valuable” because we are women. Men. should no longer fall for this. You are not special and deserve to be treated no differently than men. It is unfortunate that you will not do for men what we do for you…It’s called equality but you feminists are liars.

  • Seth @ at 4:04 pm, October 15th, 2010

    Go ahead, free men from our gender role like you insist to such a choice. You won’t let us will you. You want to stop The Patriarchy, free men from depending on us to support your “choices”.

    Give men choices. You don’t have what it takes to be our equals, to provide for men and children do you? Unlike feminists I want to be available to my infant child and want to be a stay at home Dad.

    If I divorce you I expect you to support myself and the child with alimony and child support like you do to men you liars. You won’t share custody of children will you? If you did then it would free men from our gender role and having to support you. YOU DON’T WANT THAT DO YOU?

  • Suzanne @ at 4:37 pm, October 15th, 2010

    “If you did then it would free men from our gender role and having to support you. YOU DON’T WANT THAT DO YOU?” Quite simply Seth, yes, that is exactly what feminists want. Gender roles should be a thing of the past. A man should have the right to stay at home and look after his child, to cry without being condemned as ‘weak’ and to become a hairdresser without being accused of not being ‘macho’ enough. Similarly, women should have equal pay to men, be able to out without fear of being raped and be able to walk down the street without being whistled at like a dog. Unfortunatley, our society does not operate in this way, and that is why feminism exists. To fight for gender roles to become redundant.

  • Steph @ at 7:14 pm, October 15th, 2010

    For anyone who’s at all thinking that Ryan and Seth are different people:
    (warning, large image!)
    http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/4641/ryansethtakedown.jpg

    That took me about twenty minutes to assemble. There’s even more if anyone’s still not convinced.

  • Emily @ at 9:19 pm, October 15th, 2010

    @Steph
    Thankyou for that :)
    Although it’s quite obvious already just reading the posts from these two supposedly “different” characters, more evidence will always help.
    @Ryan – do you really think that we’re so stupid as to believe that your supposed sexist ally is actually a different person? Really, from using the SAME language, discussing the SAME issues & subject matter, over and over again, and using the SAME old tired, sexist, patriarchal tone, every single time, geez, you think you could be a bit more creative than that.

    Look everyone, Ryan is creating himself new “friends” as he has none here. Go back to the swordtip, or whatever it was that you mentioned in a previous post Ryan/Seth, where you can discuss your outdated sexist ideas in a “friendly” sexist environment. Not here. Thankyou :)

  • Seth @ at 9:55 pm, October 15th, 2010

    Way to go steph. If you bother to read I already told you that Ryan is no longer allowed to comment here.

  • Seth @ at 10:04 pm, October 15th, 2010

    You should also know that Ryan is not allowed to post sources here either.

    The moderator is afraid that by showing you objective meta analytic studies and respective graphs it will be against feminist interests.

    Anytime speech is censored it is wise to ask what truths are being silenced.

  • Seth @ at 10:20 pm, October 15th, 2010

    “patriarchal tone”

    Ahhhh yes the classic feminist ad hominem, the vaunted patriarch…

    Patriarchy means men are a part of the family and the lives of our children and matriarchy means single mother homes. Make your single mother home you feminist matriarch. Stay away from men. Try being independent and self supporting. You can’t you ate weak and must rely on the financial support of men to survive.

  • Steph @ at 10:29 pm, October 15th, 2010

    @Emily: No worries – it was really fun.

  • Seth @ at 11:07 pm, October 15th, 2010

    Oh if only you could Suzanne. Remember, your a woman and women are not capable of surviving without men supporting them…

    Likewise you are incapable and unwilling to free men from female dependency. Women rely on men because its easier than being independent.

    Women WILL NEVER be independent. You are incapable of even supporting yourselves and there is NO WAY women will ever be able to financially support men like we do for women.

  • Quinc @ at 7:25 am, October 16th, 2010

    Unfortunately the “no draft at all!” position feels like a cop-out in this situation. The draft would serve an important purpose in extreme situations. Though I would certainly hope our government avoids those situations at all costs!

    Of course the draft should include women. I suppose that feminist organizations won’t specifically campaign for that, but I doubt they would campaign against either, and they should campaign for a woman’s right to volunteer for any military position. Though I suppose the current policy on the infantry is justified since it is perhaps the only job where being bigger and stronger really makes a difference (that and ditch digging).

    @Seth: It’s depresses me that all my responses seem to be towards these MRAs. They’re probably two different people, but they’ve clearly both copied their ideologies from spearhead.com, so it doesn’t really matter.

    Seth, you’ve got two choices:
    Change your goals: Go and create a traditional family, or better yet, adopt a boy or two, and raise them by yourself without any women around, and avoid women whenever possible if they are such trouble.

    Change your beliefs: Question your beliefs about women. Try to find real evidence about whether or not women can take care of themselves. Realize that regardless of what you say, feminists believe that these injustices only exist because of the culture, and if you change the culture you will see more independent women, and it will be easier to be a stay at home Dad.

    But seriously screaming, “Women leave men alone! Oh but you can’t because your too weak!” Is basically a contradiction. You want some of the same changes that feminists (or do you?), yet you hate feminists because you think it’s impossible.

    Ryan had at least a veneer of rationality and respectability, however thin, Seth sounds more like a lunatic.

  • blakerivers @ at 7:43 am, October 16th, 2010

    @Quinc

    “The draft would serve an important purpose in extreme situations.”

    And exactly what “important purpose” would that be? What will the draft do that aggressive recruitment cannot do? How will this be desirable? What are your thoughts on this?

  • SarahC @ at 3:10 pm, October 16th, 2010

    @Quinc

    I feel the same way, that saying ‘no draft’ if a copout. The draft stands as a way to get troops quickly in desperate times. While I, personally, would set a limit that drafted troops cannot be deployed without their consent outside of the established borders of the United States (Thereby making sure that the military would have trouble sending drafted troops to risk their lives in offensive wars, while retaining the strength of the draft in the very unlikely case of invasion.

    But as to women and the draft, I think women should be required to register for the draft and serve if needed.

  • Seth @ at 4:04 pm, October 16th, 2010

    Maybe women could be drafted to bake cookies for the men who do all the work.

    At least if we did something like that it would appear like women were helping and had some sort of obligation or responsibility.

    I can tell you all that men’s responsibilites are NOT A CHOICE yet ALL of women’s are. In fact all of women’s “choices” are financed by male responsibilites.

  • Seth @ at 4:12 pm, October 16th, 2010

    Women claim the right to their own bodies, the bodies of children both pre and post conception and the bodies of men and the fruits of it’s labor..particularly after divorce women force men to be the provider or we are put inside of jail cages.

    Men’s bodies and even our lives are the property of government as is illustrated by this article but also the property of women.

    Men don’t have rights like women do. I wish we did but women and government won’t allow us to.

  • Layla @ at 7:43 pm, October 16th, 2010

    Oh, look at me, I’m Seth! My flawed and desperate “arguments” are clearly a pathetic cry for attention because I simply cannot stand feminism and all it’s right-doings!
    I contradict myself when I say that women bully men, but they are too weak as well! Oh my, I can’t even begin to look at my obvious hypocrisy!
    I wish all of you feminists would leave me alone so I can continue to throw my bitterness into these faulty rants. I would feel much better about myself if you do!

    Maybe if we act as whiny as he does, he could eventually shut the hell up!

  • Liza @ at 10:03 pm, October 16th, 2010

    Seth,
    I didn’t know Obama and the rest of the government magically grew boobs and vaginas overnight. Thank you for enlightening us stupid feminists.

  • Steph @ at 5:58 am, October 17th, 2010

    Layla: Of all the non-ignoring strategies, I think I like yours the best.

  • Jake @ at 6:02 am, October 17th, 2010

    @Seth
    You douche-bag, women are far more effective soldiers then men.
    They do what it takes to get the job done, no distractions.
    Dangle a pair of breasts in front of a moron like you and you wouldn’t be able to take a shot at the guy with running towards you flailing his machete.
    If you are trying to argue that the world isn’t sexist towards females, you may want to try not being sexist.

  • Seth @ at 8:02 pm, October 17th, 2010

    Nice front Jake but being a supplicating white knight will not get you far.

    Women look to men to provide and protect them because they are incappable of being independent. Women behave this way because it is easier than doing so themselves.

    You’re being to beta Jake. I was your age once. Giving women what they demand is a big mistake. Unfortunately the government forces you to if you are not careful. Women are all consummate Jake, they will walk all over you and take all your money and resources only if you let them.

    I was out last night and I kid you not, females wilwalk right up to you and tell you to buy them a drink. It happened to me last night. I old her “no thank you” and she immediately fell for me. The best advise I can give to a young man like yourself Jake is that you need not supplicate yourself to women to be liked by them. In fact they respond to the opposite…

    Women will always give you shit tests like this. Stand up for yourself jake. Bowing down to women will not work in your favor. I was a white knight when I was your age. When I was your age I would have given that woman my money. Once you understand female nature you will be much better off.

  • Seth @ at 8:09 pm, October 17th, 2010

    In short Jake, of course women are capable of conducting warfare with other tribes to gain territory and resources but from the beginning of time they would much rather get men to do it for them.

    Nothing has changed Jake, don’t fool yourself, women are not independent because it is easier to get what they want through men.

  • Emily S. @ at 9:59 pm, October 17th, 2010

    I do agree that the draft should be abolished. I mean, IMO it’s extremely morally wrong to try to force a person into combat. Also, I think the draft is literally obsolete – it’s only useful in a war scenario where you have everyone on the ground and shooting at each other. Modern warfare, especially considering that it seems like everyone has nuclear weapons these days, is more dependent on the level of technology than the number of soldiers.

  • Anonymous @ at 1:31 am, October 18th, 2010

    @Seth,

    Seth I think maybe you are earning yourself a Darwin Award.

    Not only do you troll a forum of feminists pointlessly, you are doing so via the internet, an untraceable means. And no-one cares about you IRL.

    This is coming from an assumption:

    You do the above because A) You can’t get a girlfriend and are venting frustration, or B)…. wait I can’t think of another reason.

    You are an idiot. And will hopefully earn a proper Darwin, and remove your idiocy from the gene-pool.

    Yours,

    The Internet

  • Kelsey @ at 2:55 am, October 18th, 2010

    Seth, have you read your own posts? No matter what your stance, you are actually sounding more like a raving lunatic than a person with any shred of sensibility left in them (I am truly not saying this to be offensive, its just honestly the observation I have made).

    Now, anyone will tell you, I am no feminist. (Camille, you can attest to this I’m sure). There are many things about feminism that I don’t entirely agree on, but that’s just me. What is needed is understanding and equality. We need to all realise that men and women need each other, in my belief anyway. I come from a balanced family home with parents in a good marriage, and it works because they submit to one another and appreciate one another as a man and a woman. So let me just say that although yes, gender roles can be detrimental and place people in boxes, I personally believe that they are fine, even good, to an extent. I don’t mean it in the old school sort of “women have to sew and men have to hammer stuff” sort of way, but that men and women have been wired differently for a reason. We fit each other and complement each other when the roles are not taken to extremes. But I digress…..

    Seth, you need to understand how you sound to us, to anyone who would read or listen to you. You set up “straw man” arguments, things that you make up in your own mind, perhaps based on one or two negative experiences in your world, generalise them to every single woman out there, and then knock your own straw man down. Your responses are arbitrary at best, not giving any logical reasons for your beliefs, and just ranting and raving about them, which means that, even if you did have valid points (which I don’t believe you do, sorry), nobody could take you seriously because of how extreme and over the top your view is and how you are portraying yourself. I can honestly say that I have never, never met a male who shares such radical views as you and I have two older brothers who are in no way pro feminism, and most of my friends are males.

    You said to Jake that when you were his age, you were the “white knight” and that from your experiences, you have subsequently become some sort of Gollum creature I gathered. I am guessing from the posts of yours I have read, that you have been hurt in the past by women, in whatever way. Now yes, there are some bitchy gold digger women out there who use men. It happens all the time. But don’t be so naive, please, to think that men don’t ever use women in the same way. That is down to INDIVIDUALS and the individual decisions they make for themselves, not any gender centred biological predisposition.

    As an adult the mark of maturity is to go “yes, shit has happened to me, I have been used, manipulated, trodden on, but you know what, I’m bigger than this, and I am not going to let it affect me”. Get up, get going, open your eyes and your mind, and see the world how others see it. Wallowing in bitterness is no way to live. This is coming from a teenager, who has already learnt this. You think that no one on here has been used or manipulated? But guess what, most of us have chosen to rise above our situations and the people who have hurt as and become bigger and better people ourselves. Now please, Seth, some of us are actually trying to help you if you just had the ears to listen and maybe take on board other’s advice. You never know, you might see the world in a different light. Please don’t make the immature assumption that all women are like the ones you have known. The ones you meet in bars will typically be like the ones you described. I have met some complete assholes of men, and if I were to just look at them, I would probably also generalise to the rest of you. But I don’t. I look at the other men, who are good and pure and kindhearted. Maybe those are the kinds of women you should look to and stop focusing on the dreadful minority.

    Sorry haha. My ramblings end here. For now at least

  • Jake @ at 3:15 am, October 18th, 2010

    @Seth
    I’m a little older than 16 Seth, sit down and shut your mouth.
    No one likes an internet tough guy, and just because women don’t like you doesn’t mean you have the right to insult them.

    Nice try with the “I done gone outside my bedroom and dem gurls dey liek me heapz” story. Nobody is buying it.

    Go back to 4Chan life newfag.

  • Jack @ at 4:45 am, October 18th, 2010

    @Jake
    There’s no need to be so aggressive towards him, you’ll only provoke a stronger reaction.
    People aren’t bad by themselves, there are always different things which contribute to their temperament.
    You may be wrong in this case, or you may be right.
    Either way, people like Seth (or Ryan as he hinted?) need to be shown compassion in order to overcome the things that have happened to them.

    @Seth or Ryan.
    It’s is incredibly dangerous to assume that women will respond positively to the way you imply that you treat them.
    Mate, i’m afraid that you’re going to find that that sort of attitude will you you more harm than good.

    And to your most recent comment, the “buy me a drink” state of social normality isn’t perpetuated by only women.
    People learn these kinds of social conventions from the media, have you noticed how many shows star characters who always offer to buy that stereotypical women in a bar a drink?
    Now, how many of those shows are directed by females?
    Not many at all.

    It’s not the way females think Seth, it’s the way society has taught us all to think.

    You can’t deny that.

  • Seth @ at 3:00 pm, October 18th, 2010

    TV is garbage. I don’t watch TV. Second you have things twisted around, she told me to buy her a drink. I said no thank you and immediately took to me.

    After she realized I was not interested she said “I want to see you again” and she walked away. Don’t be so nieve about women. They seek resources through males.

    I am quite honest when I tell you that you must protect yourselves. Women will rape you and leave you with nothing. They will take your children and force you into hard labor. They will take everything.

  • Seth @ at 4:56 pm, October 18th, 2010

    what do you mean by “incredibly dangerous”

    Are you a white knight to?

  • blakerivers @ at 9:29 pm, October 18th, 2010

    Let me get some popcorn and enjoy this banter. This is like an argument between a blind person and a deaf person. One keeps talking, the other keeps signing, and nothing is getting across.

    In the words of Kahlil Gibran:
    You are blind and I am deaf and dumb, so let us touch hands and understand.

    Good luck touching hands through the internet (literally or figuratively).
    Maybe I shouldn’t be so cynical.

  • Serena @ at 10:17 pm, October 18th, 2010

    I support the draft. I believe that men and women should be called on to protect their home. However, I also believe that the draft should include non-combat positions. e.g. mechanics, cooks, techies, etc. Will this ever happen? Probably not but this is a draft that I can agree with.

    Now for the fun *rubbing hands together* I plan on feeding the troll. Sorry everyone!

    To the misoqynist Troll:
    Patriarchy means following a family line through the male bloodline. Matriarchy means following it through the woman’s.
    Yes, there are/were cultures that placed more importance on the sex of bloodline lineage.

    Matriarchy does not mean “single mother family”.

    Women are not weak. Strength is not just muscle power. It’s also going to work at a dead end job and missing meals so your children can eat. It’s standing up for yourself when have been wronged by someone. It’s also accepting that some people/situations will not change and you have to say goodbye.

    You say women are weak because…you give a few stereotypical answers. Women are taught to be nice and never angry and to always put other people first, because if you don’t, well then you are just selfish and you should be ashamed of yourself.

    You also stated that men are not responsible for women and her children. Well, you are the father, then yes, you are responsible for those children. And if you go the “welfare route”, I have a full time job, and I pay taxes, so I am also paying for welfare.

    “Look at everything around you right now. It all came from the earth by male work and sacrifice. Women are to weak to mine and obtain raw materials, so you make men do it. Men produce territory and resources. Men are also the ones who utilize resources intelligently and women can not. All the things around you were, acquired, designed and built by men from the carpet you walk on to the house you sit in. It is ONLY men that keep electricity flowing to your house and that heat your home in the winter. ALL the lines between countries were drawn in the blood and sacrifice of men NOT women..”

    You do realise that this is a complete load of crap, right? Women have and are inventing things that our society uses everyday.

    A brief list of women inventions:
    Kevlar
    The carbuator
    Circular Saw
    Apgar Test
    Globes
    Fire Escapes
    Rotary engine
    Electric water heater

    Well, I’m done now. The man I take advantage of is calling. LOL!

  • Jake @ at 11:14 pm, October 18th, 2010

    @Seth
    “After she realized I was not interested she said “I want to see you again” and she walked away.

    Funny guy, you really think your story is getting more realistic?
    Moron.

    “Hai /b/, I was out that other night and I saw this girl and she was liek bai me a drink and i was liek nozors so she left and sez she wants to see me again
    u mad?”

  • Jake @ at 12:58 am, October 19th, 2010

    F-F-F-F-Fail Breaker!

    You don’t have any success with women Seth, you have already proven that many times.
    And i’m not your brother.

    Seppuku, I demand it of you.
    Perhaps that way you will redeem some of your honor.

    You make me sick, you cancer.

  • Kelsey @ at 5:02 am, October 19th, 2010

    “They will never be our equals”
    Anyone else see the utter hypocrisy of that statement? I mean seriously, that’s the kind of statement I would have expected from Hitler about the Jews. An extreme example I know, but still.

    You think, Seth, that just because Jake is a fellow male you can try to manipulate and recruit him to your “cause”. Clearly you are insulting your own gender to immediately assume that all males are complete idiots without a brain cell to call their own to make their own choices about what to think about women. So you think to educate them.

    And women CAN be self supporting. Have you ever even looked out your window and seen all the single mother families out there who don’t have any, ANY support from any males. And men can certainly do the same although single father families are few and far between, and even they struggle in supporting their children at times.

    And you have said that women initiate what was it, 60% of all divorce? Think about it. Most cases of domestic violence are initiated by, you guessed it, men. Most parents who ditch their families without so much as a goodbye, are, you guessed it, men, who don’t even have the balls to say to their wives that they are unhappy and want a divorce. So in those cases, which happen often, women HAVE to divorce their husbands in order to obtain some freedom from them.

    And even after all the horrible things you see about men, the fact that most murderers, abusers, etc are male, I have not let those statistics make me think any less of the male gender at all. In fact, I admire men, the soldiers, civil servants and just ordinary men, who contribute to society and to my life personally, and respect both their fellow man and women. Again, as I previously stated it is down to INDIVIDUALS and their CHOICES.

    But you seem to have had no answer to that or any other valid point put forward on this forum, as you seem to systematically avoid all sense of logic. Instead you see another male, a potential recruit to your misogynistic cause, and hone in on him, hoping to gain an ally. Well you clearly don’t have much faith in the willpower and strength of your own gender.

    You claim to be world wise. Why don’t you elaborate a little bit on why you are so. Maybe then we can perhaps begin to understand where you are coming from. But so far, as I previously stated, your arguments and reasoning have been completely arbitrary. Most of your comments seem to be highly personal and opinionated (which is fine of course, everyone is allowed their own opinion), but it isn’t a logical stance to argue from. You have used statistics, I’ll give you that, but like as with the one about divorce, you seem to not have delved very far into what those statistics might actually mean.

    Please, at least try to take on advice and argue in a logical fashion.

  • Jake @ at 5:51 am, October 19th, 2010

    @Seth
    You just got owned maggot.
    But you will probably just skip over that post in shame.

    Well Sethy my boy, you have lost.
    Thats obvious, and its funny to see you grovel at my feet and try to explain yourself.

    You failed with women, so you picked up the persona of the guy who “knows what women really want” and treat them badly because of it.

    You really do make me sick.

  • Serena @ at 7:20 am, October 19th, 2010

    @ Seth

    Wow, just wow. First, I never said the “Patriarchy” was doing anything. I just explanied what it was.

    A couple points:
    1) Yes, a man and a women are responsible for the children that they consent to having.
    2) Title IX states that any school recieving public money has to spend an equal amount on women’s sports. If “countless” programs were cut it’s because the school lacked funding.

    But after this, I’m done with you. You clearly here to pick a fight and claim women are the enemy. You clearly troll feminist blogs just to fight. You don’t offer a vaild or clear argument for the posters to discuss. So please, go back to your bridge.

    BTW, Kelsey <3 your post!

  • Seth @ at 3:06 pm, October 19th, 2010

    “And you have said that women initiate what was it, 60% of all divorce?”

    -no it is 70%

    “Think about it. Most cases of domestic violence are initiated by, you guessed it, men.”

    Actually 40% is female upon male. Most non reciprocal violence i.e. the man does not attack back IS INITIATED BY WOMEN.

    “Most parents who ditch their families without so much as a goodbye, are, you guessed it, men”

    -Again, 70% of those who abandon their family through divorce are women. There are no measurable numbers for the amount of men who “ditch their families”. Family means a married couple. Legal dissolution is called divorce. Most of which are filed by women under the category of “no-fault” meaning there is no reason in particular. So by women’s own statements, your information is false.

    “who don’t even have the balls to say to their wives that they are unhappy and want a divorce. So in those cases, which happen often, women HAVE to divorce their husbands.”

    Again, most women file under no-fault.

    What you are really saying is that men are responsible for taking care of a woman and her child especially after divorce so men leave without filing for divorce given that divorce leaves men with obligations to the woman while the woman has no obligations to the man.

    If this is what you are trying to say I can see why you believe that men may leave without filing.

    This is correct, men are responsible for being the provider to women and what women see as their children both pre and post conception. Women will never free men from our gender role, they will never share custody of children. Men are just seen as providers, this is all women will ever allow us to be.

    Personally, I’d rather avoid such a commitment to a woman in the first place. I think many men are making the same choice which is a good thing given what men are facing.

    The 2010 census just came out. Marriage rates are at a record low and continuing to decline. Single mother births are 40% of all births in the U.S. Both trends show significant momentum. Men should do our best to go our own way while at the same time fighting for our equal rights.

  • Thomas @ at 11:02 pm, October 19th, 2010

    Seth 40 percent is less than 60 percent, Kelsey is correct and you suck at math

    Kelsey: 1
    Seth: 0

  • firefly @ at 11:45 pm, October 19th, 2010

    Maybe, but not in the same quarters, and not the same training, because women are physically different from men. Drafts, especially in a country as large as America, should not be used.

  • Minnah @ at 3:19 am, October 20th, 2010

    @seth/ryan/god knows who you really are

    stepping away from the alarming and frankly hilarious display of misogyny within your trollsome posts, I’d love to hear your opinion- in your ideal world, how would gender roles play out?

    And furthermore, if you view women as being so below you, how do you expect to maintain meaningful relationships with women at all, if (as you yourself said) “Women will rape you and leave you with nothing. They will take your children and force you into hard labor. They will take everything.”? It sounds like you would be content to live in a shack, caveman-style, never coming within 500 metres of an actual human female.

    How do you then, as a male, treat women romantically, in light of your strong views regarding gender roles?

  • Jake @ at 2:43 am, October 21st, 2010

    98% of teenagers named Seth are douche-bags
    98% of douche-bags make up statistics to make their stories seem credible.

  • Seth @ at 3:04 pm, October 21st, 2010

    What statistics are in question Jake? I’d love to help you out.

  • Halle @ at 8:23 pm, October 21st, 2010

    As a new fbomb reader I love to read comments as they provide new insights and points of view. I love that not everyone has the same view. It keeps life interesting and people questioning their values, which can be good. However, I am appalled at the violent verbal attacks on many of the posts. My inital thought is that these people, not to name anyone, simply love conflict. Why else would they purposely look up a feminist site and comment on posts for the sole purpose of slashing everyone else’s opinons who differed an iota from theirs.

  • Halle @ at 8:24 pm, October 21st, 2010

    And Kelsey, your posts were lovely and well written. They must have taken time. Jake, I love to hear men take a practical and rational side. Please continue posting. :)

  • dan @ at 3:43 am, October 22nd, 2010

    ive only started in my short life to read and understand about the gender inequalities in society, and id have to agree with a number of things seth has said, such as laws that disadvantage men eg divorce, false accusations of crimes. However, it is qutie clear that he has quite a extreme and disturbing view on women. Thank god that most dont have similar views

  • Seth @ at 1:56 pm, October 22nd, 2010

    Yes Jake, keep rationalizing the statistics I posted.

  • Kelsey @ at 5:59 am, October 23rd, 2010

    Ok, I’m tired, so just a couple of quick points.

    Have you been hit by a woman Seth? I’m sure you have. Did it hurt? couldn’t have much. Seriously, I playfully hit my guy friends all the time. We did an experiment the other day. I punched one of them as hard as I physically could, and he just laughed and said it was like a butterfly landing on his shoulder. (And he isn’t exactly The Rock) He then shoved me, not even trying hard, and i nearly fell over even when trying to stand my ground. And thats only one example. Men are physically stronger than females. When females hit males, it hardly hurts the male unless the chick is really butch and the guy reallly weak. So please, don’t complain about something so inconsequential.
    And women do share custody. I know many, many people with divorced parents. And all of them share custody! In all cases, both the mother and father share equal responsibility for the child. I don’t know what country you’re living in, truly I don’t.
    Ok, so maybe not so quick points. Oh well
    And again, I’m sure we would all love to know why you feel so strongly on the subject. Now I’m honestly not trying to be a cow here, I just want to try and understand where you are coming from.

  • Seth @ at 4:02 pm, October 23rd, 2010

    There is no excuse for a woman to physically harm a man….and yes it does hurt when a woman punches us. Many men are beaten and seriously injured or killed by their wives and women.

    Males pride ourselves on abilities because our value to the opposite sex is in our external utility. This does not make it ok to abuse us.

  • Jake @ at 10:58 pm, October 23rd, 2010

    Way to flip-flop insecure homosexual rooster.
    Enjoy your teenage angst, and being alone forever.
    Once you finally end yourself, not even your parents will notice.

  • Kelsey @ at 11:27 pm, October 23rd, 2010

    Whoa, ok Jake, kind of unnecessary there. Sorry about that Seth, he’s being a bit over the top.

  • Kelsey @ at 11:51 pm, October 23rd, 2010

    Of course, there is no excuse for anyone to abuse anyone, ever. But think about it…would you call a couple of siblings getting annoyed at each other a giving each other a punch on the shoulder that might sting but be ultimately harmless, abuse? I come from a country that has the highest rate of domestic abuse in the world, and I will tell you, around 95% (that’s just an estimate based on what I have seen and heard) of it is initiated by men. In fact, I have actually only heard of one case where it was initiated by a woman, and the husband wasn’t even in the picture any longer.

    It seems to me Seth that you want to hate women. Any excuse seems to do, and sometimes you seem to be grasping at straws. You do not appear to want to explain why you hate us so. Maybe you want to hate us and somehow justify your hatred because it makes you feel like you have some measure of power. I don’t know as I don’t know you or what you have been through. And yes, women have done and still do dreadful things to men. But you would be extremely hypocritical to suggest that men have not treated women the same, even worse in the past. And I’m not saying that because I have a chip off my shoulder, but simply because it is a well documented historical fact.

    Yes, women have murdered their husbands. But men have also murdered their wives. I have even heard of children, yes, children murdering total strangers. Does that mean that all 12 year olds are evil potential killers? Murderers represent an extreme majority. Remember that the majority of murderers are in fact middle aged white males. The other night I watched a documentary on this dreadful woman who married 14 times in 17 years, and left all her husbands high and dry without a penny to their name, and didn’t even let them see the children they had with her. Does that mean that all women are like that? Certainly not. I know I could certainly never do that. Ever.

    I don’t understand why you want to hold on to all your bitterness. I don’t know, maybe you do actually have a good reason for it. But just because you may have a good reason for extreme prejudice doesn’t make it right. It’s the same principals as in racism which is of course just another kind of prejudice. For example, in the country I grew up in, I had every reason to be prejudiced against the native population. They held my family at gun point, robbed our house many times, hijacked my family, mugged them and held knives to their throats during the ten years that I lived there. Does that mean I hate them as a people, even though they committed the majority of the crimes? No I don’t. I think they are a wonderful people because I have CHOSEN to look at them as INDIVIDUALS rather than as members of a race. I CHOSE to look at the good people rather than the majority, like many others did. I refused to be racist even though I had absolutely every logical reason to be.

    I don’t think there is anything more I can say to be honest. It’s really up to you. As they say, there is none so blind as those that do not want to see.

    I don’t believe you can ever lead a full and happy life holding so much bitterness and hatred in yourself. I hope, truly hope, that one day you will be able to find a woman who can understand you and hopefully change your mind about us as a whole. I just hope that you will give her a chance.

    Remember, hatred and bitterness imprison us. I pray that you will be able to let go of whatever it is that has caused you to hate us so. Please don’t give up on half of humanity. We really aren’t that bad, truly =].

    May God bless you, Seth.

  • Kelsey @ at 11:53 pm, October 23rd, 2010

    sorry, that meant to say “murderers represent an extreme minority”, not majority. Heh.good proofreading kelsey

  • Jake @ at 3:23 am, October 24th, 2010

    100% of people named Kelsey who post on feminist websites are 100% undeniably right and should not be questioned under penalty of stoning.

  • blakerivers @ at 5:47 am, October 24th, 2010

    @Kelsey: That’s a remarkably beautiful gesture of magnanimity. I only wish it were received as sincerely as it was given.

    As you indicated, human beings have a problematic tendency to generalize from a small set of examples to the entire group. Obviously Ryan’s philosophy is an example of this.

    You said this: “Men are physically stronger than females. When females hit males, it hardly hurts the male unless the chick is really butch and the guy reallly weak.”

    This is not as true as you think it is. The reason many womens’ punches don’t hurt is because they don’t know how to punch, not because they’re biologically deficient. I object to your assertion that females are so disadvantaged. However, I understand your general point.

  • Jake @ at 7:13 am, October 24th, 2010

    Or because they don’t want to hurt the guy, I can punch a girl without hurting her just fine.

    I think I should point out that Ryan doesn’t actually think pr believe anything he says, he’s just spewing out crap he heard from other jerks to annoy random people, probably because he was banned from 4Chan.

  • Kris W @ at 5:04 am, November 22nd, 2010

    “Alex Catgirl”, tell that “men start macho wars” to the victims of Catherine the “Great”, or to the millions of young British men who died or where maimed for life because they where pressured by their girlfriends, wives or women in general to “go off and fight” in the first world war.

    This is why women shouldn’t be allowed to become President. And in fact it is immoral for a female elected Representative or Senator to support war period. Why should young men be ordered by a woman to go off to die when there is almost a 0-9% chance that the said woman would never face such a risk ever?

    Maybe in the “next”(hopefully there isn’t) war, young women en mass should be conscripted for front line infantry, Vietnam War style, so they can get a chance to feel what real oppression and subjugation is.

    Actually if they ever need the draft, because of A) war on boy’s, B) Girl Power(boy’s are stupid throw rocks at them) and C) all the hateful garbage(that has been thoroughly debunked, yes how does it feel to belong to a hate movement that every SINGLE study published by feminist’s has been found fraudulent or inaccurate?) that society has been spewing towards males; there is no way young men would defend America en mass anymore.

    Women have all the privilege so you gall’s can do all the fighting whenever China, NK or Iran go ballistic. Me, I would rather watch western civilization burn.

  • Adelina Arbry @ at 6:48 pm, January 7th, 2011

    You completed a few nice points there. I did a search on the topic and found a good number of folks will consent with your blog.

  • Ryan W @ at 6:07 pm, May 9th, 2011

    Its sexist; Men and women will never be truly equal until both must either register or not register as a group. Women have fought to prove themselves as equals and made it quite clear that they can handle any amount of work a man can. Combat does not fit into the equation at all. As in the Roe v. Wade case “my body, my choice.” Therefore, the draft should be eliminated if the courts want to keep this consistent between the sexes. A man conscientiously opposed to war like myself would die in a minute. Being commanded to die for your country when you are supposed to have the three inalienable rights of LIFE, liberty, and property doesn’t sound like a whole lot of fairness to me… Plus, men could lose their rights to citizenship, student aid, and federal jobs. In addition, the draft was created back before women were believed to be citizens and as this is no longer true, the draft must change as well. Also, in the event of a war requiring a draft (which there hasn’t been for some time. Bam, another reason), it would be completely useless because of all the nuclear weapons and new fighting styles that have developed today. People that say sexual harassment and rape would occur are wrong. The only reason this occurs currently is because of the offset numbers of men and women voluntarily enlisting. If there is more women AND men, then this will be prevented.

  • Some guy @ at 5:20 pm, July 24th, 2011

    if you think the draft is sexist, join my group http://www.facebook.com/safety#!/pages/The-Draft-is-Sexist/223226704380309?sk=wall

  • Anon @ at 6:39 pm, December 11th, 2011

    Ideally, no one should be required to join a draft. But going on the assumption that its irremovable, yes, requiring only males over 19 to join is sexist. Remember that the majority of military roles are non-combat, so physical differences wouldn’t even excuse a gender-specific draft. You can’t strive for equality then ask for additional benefits – that’s not equality.

  • Anon @ at 6:43 pm, December 11th, 2011

    And to the arguments above…Oh goodness, people here really think men should be the only ones to die because men start wars? You’re saying every man in the military, or in general is a bad person who deserves death because of a few crazy leaders? Ugh, disgusting. Over 90% of deaths in war are inflicted on males, fyi.

    Also, there is no such thing as “reverse sexism”, sexism by definition can go in either direction.

  • Anon @ at 12:08 pm, March 11th, 2012

    The comments here remind me that sexism is just in strong in women as it is in men.

    Calling war a masculine thing that women should be excluded from? Fine. But just make sure you also agree that there should be no women military generals, no women construction workers, no women police officers, no women prison guards, no women diplomats, and no women athletes.

  • Majestical Me @ at 3:09 am, September 24th, 2012

    If a woman is shot she will not be any more dead than a man.
    If a woman shoots someone the victim will not be any less dead than if a man shot them.
    Wars are fought with weapons so powerful that the fleshy weakling using them isn’t really that important.
    also it is just sexism. sexism can be against either sex.

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